The Hazy IPA

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Update, 3rd brew, 2nd spew.

The wife called out and said the "droid has overflowed" (it's great that she now calls it "the Droid" and not that "thing") and lots of precious, yummy smelling fluid and foam was there on the bench again.

Cleaned it all up, sanitised my hopping stuff and added the first of the Dry Hops as I figure we have hit "High Krausen" already or close to it.

Not quite according to plan however as somehow, I didn't end up with Galaxy hops in all my purchases. I don't understand how I missed this but I did so, went instead with Citra, Mosaic and Eclipse, 15g of each and yes @Dustin FrothmanI still used the hop bag because I am thinking they will be in there for what, another 7 days at least so this will help it keep the floaties away (not that I am worried about them for what is meant to be a "Hazy").

For the second Dry Hop when the Droid indicates for it, I will still go with 25g of Citra and Mosaic and I'm thinking 20 g now of the Eclipse, all just chucked in and allowed to roam free in the Droid. That's going to be a grand total of 115 grams so should be a hop bomb.

Now to go and get some Galaxy hops and since I am there, I'll buy some other types whilst I am at it as I am thinking to try an all New Zealand hopped beer after the All Inn NEIPA.

[Captain 3 Droids]

15 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

I'll buy some other types whilst I am at it

Try and get some Idaho 7 hops. Very strong in tropical, citrus and stone fruit.

Also Huell Melon  and Nelson Sauvin are great hops.  

[Dustin Frothman]

3 hours ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

yes @Dustin FrothmanI still used the hop bag because I am thinking they will be in there for what, another 7 days at least so this will help it keep the floaties away

Whatever works best for you and gives you the results you want is the correct method. 👍

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Things have calmed down and only a little more "spew" was down the side of the Droid this morning.

Had some time to think about some things and I have some thoughts on the Droid and App. But first some background to give context for these thoughts:

I started the brew at 1627 on Sunday which starts "Propagation Zone". 12 hours later at 0427 on Monday morning it "Entered Fermentation Zone". At 1749 on Monday "Fermentation was detected". At approximately 1830 on Monday, the Droid was found to have spewed quite a lot of material, fluid and foam. I suspect it started spewing at least 30 minutes prior, if not an hour or more.

To my mind, this was very surprising as it was barely 24 hours since starting the brew and the app had only just told me that we had entered the fermentation zone.

Now, those thoughts:

The Propagation time is very arbitrary at 12 hours from starting the Brew. To me this is clearly not accurate as different yeasts would propagate at different times. From my experience, the Y2 yeast propagates faster than the Y1 I have previously used for the Point and N-C IPAs.

BTW, I am a microbiologist by study but have never worked as one as I have previously mentioned, I'm an IT Manager. But from memory of my studies, I certainly understand that there are quite a number of other factors that will impact propagation other than yeast type. Age, storage and other environmental factors will all impact yeast viability and propagation.

Clearly for my DDH Hazy IPA, propagation was pretty short and very active and fermentation started way before the app told me so as less than 1 hour later, there was a lot of material spewed out of the droid.

Personally, I think there should be some variation in these "arbitrary" times for propagation and fermentation zone.

I would think that BrewArt/Coopers would have some good stats on the propagation for the various yeast strains in the Brewart Ingredients. Some customisation in the app to be able to select (or automatically accommodate when using BrewPrints) which type of yeast is being used. This could be done on averages or mean propagation times for a particular yeast.

Another thought, what if someone wanted to use one of those rapidly fermenting Krivak yeasts. By the time your app tells you "Entered Fermentation Zone" 12 hours after starting the brew, using Krivak, you would be in High Krausen already.

I also think that in the early stages of the brew, say the first 3 days, the Droid should be testing for Fermentation more frequently. After that, a daily check makes more sense.

And that ends my thoughts.

One last comment, at least the spew alerted me to the fact that it was likely high krausen and I could do my first hopping of a planned Double Dry Hopped Hazy IPA.  😎

[Captain 3 Droids]

@Wazza_wantsbeer

I think your situation is the exception rather than norm. The propagation zone is a set time of 12hrs and imo would suit 90% situations. The fermentation zone is imo for the confirmation that fermentation has started. Now fermentation can start very early, the yeast, temperature,ingredients all playing a part. However is it really important that the system detects the few high fermentations during the probation zone? 
Beside the overflow of krausen this can easily be ascertained from the temperature graph, the quick rises in temperature, the frequency of and cooling.

Just my two bob’s worth.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Captain 3 Droids
12psi to 12hrs

[Dustin Frothman]

3 hours ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Things have calmed down and only a little more "spew" was down the side of the Droid this morning.

Had some time to think about some things and I have some thoughts on the Droid and App. But first some background to give context for these thoughts:

I started the brew at 1627 on Sunday which starts "Propagation Zone". 12 hours later at 0427 on Monday morning it "Entered Fermentation Zone". At 1749 on Monday "Fermentation was detected". At approximately 1830 on Monday, the Droid was found to have spewed quite a lot of material, fluid and foam. I suspect it started spewing at least 30 minutes prior, if not an hour or more.

To my mind, this was very surprising as it was barely 24 hours since starting the brew and the app had only just told me that we had entered the fermentation zone.

Now, those thoughts:

The Propagation time is very arbitrary at 12 hours from starting the Brew. To me this is clearly not accurate as different yeasts would propagate at different times. From my experience, the Y2 yeast propagates faster than the Y1 I have previously used for the Point and N-C IPAs.

BTW, I am a microbiologist by study but have never worked as one as I have previously mentioned, I'm an IT Manager. But from memory of my studies, I certainly understand that there are quite a number of other factors that will impact propagation other than yeast type. Age, storage and other environmental factors will all impact yeast viability and propagation.

Clearly for my DDH Hazy IPA, propagation was pretty short and very active and fermentation started way before the app told me so as less than 1 hour later, there was a lot of material spewed out of the droid.

Personally, I think there should be some variation in these "arbitrary" times for propagation and fermentation zone.

I would think that BrewArt/Coopers would have some good stats on the propagation for the various yeast strains in the Brewart Ingredients. Some customisation in the app to be able to select (or automatically accommodate when using BrewPrints) which type of yeast is being used. This could be done on averages or mean propagation times for a particular yeast.

Another thought, what if someone wanted to use one of those rapidly fermenting Krivak yeasts. By the time your app tells you "Entered Fermentation Zone" 12 hours after starting the brew, using Krivak, you would be in High Krausen already.

I also think that in the early stages of the brew, say the first 3 days, the Droid should be testing for Fermentation more frequently. After that, a daily check makes more sense.

And that ends my thoughts.

One last comment, at least the spew alerted me to the fact that it was likely high krausen and I could do my first hopping of a planned Double Dry Hopped Hazy IPA.  😎

Interesting post and observations. Thank you!

Microbiology would be an interesting field. Isn't it funny how people come to work in IT? 

I think your points are really valid and would be a great opportunity for some feature updates. Perhaps even an "advanced brewer" mode on the app that toggles these features. There's a Community Suggestions thread under Brewart Banter where you're encouraged to log anything and everything you wish so perhaps add some of these thoughts there.

That said, my understanding is that Coopers designed the Brewart product range to abstract away the complexities of brewing. They're basically offering us an out of the box solution to brew and dispense extremely high quality beers that encompass almost any style imaginable without requiring any prior brewing knowledge, experience or perhaps most importantly - time.

The system is designed to be simple, relatively intuitive and most importantly repeatable. We are getting many of the features of larger, more expensive and more complex brewing systems in a small form factor at a relatively affordable price point. In my opinion it can produce some pretty spectacular beers too. 

Now I'm telling you stuff here that you most certainly already know and had considered prior to diving in but I believe it's worth that short recap.

I think as @Captain 3 Droids said, and in far fewer words; the programming is aiming for the target market - people that want to make really good beer at home without all the fuss. And for the most part I reckon that's not us because we're all really into it and looking at different techniques, styles, ingredients etc. But isn't it nice to know that if you were time and energy poor that you could just follow the standard processes with the standard ingredients and get a great beer as the result?

I'm really glad that you're here and interacting with the forum because you're already providing some excellent perspectives on the process, the tech and the finished product. Home brewing is a bit of a rabbit hole and you can end up diving in so deep that you forget the reasons for getting into it to begin with. I have most certainly been guilty of this at times and will probably continue to be too.

The BeerDroid even with slightly abstracted brew data is still a very impressive little product. I guess you could always go all out and buy a Tilt hydrometer or the like and throw it in your brews if you really wanted all the extra metrics, but at a 1/4 of the price of the Droid perhaps you'd decide it's not really worth it and doesn't add much. 

[Captain 3 Droids]

36 minutes ago, Dustin Frothman said:

Interesting post and observations. Thank you!

Microbiology would be an interesting field. Isn't it funny how people come to work in IT? 

I think your points are really valid and would be a great opportunity for some feature updates. Perhaps even an "advanced brewer" mode on the app that toggles these features. There's a Community Suggestions thread under Brewart Banter where you're encouraged to log anything and everything you wish so perhaps add some of these thoughts there.

That said, my understanding is that Coopers designed the Brewart product range to abstract away the complexities of brewing. They're basically offering us an out of the box solution to brew and dispense extremely high quality beers that encompass almost any style imaginable without requiring any prior brewing knowledge, experience or perhaps most importantly - time.

The system is designed to be simple, relatively intuitive and most importantly repeatable. We are getting many of the features of larger, more expensive and more complex brewing systems in a small form factor at a relatively affordable price point. In my opinion it can produce some pretty spectacular beers too. 

Now I'm telling you stuff here that you most certainly already know and had considered prior to diving in but I believe it's worth that short recap.

I think as @Captain 3 Droids said, and in far fewer words; the programming is aiming for the target market - people that want to make really good beer at home without all the fuss. And for the most part I reckon that's not us because we're all really into it and looking at different techniques, styles, ingredients etc. But isn't it nice to know that if you were time and energy poor that you could just follow the standard processes with the standard ingredients and get a great beer as the result?

I'm really glad that you're here and interacting with the forum because you're already providing some excellent perspectives on the process, the tech and the finished product. Home brewing is a bit of a rabbit hole and you can end up diving in so deep that you forget the reasons for getting into it to begin with. I have most certainly been guilty of this at times and will probably continue to be too.

The BeerDroid even with slightly abstracted brew data is still a very impressive little product. I guess you could always go all out and buy a Tilt hydrometer or the like and throw it in your brews if you really wanted all the extra metrics, but at a 1/4 of the price of the Droid perhaps you'd decide it's not really worth it and doesn't add much. 

Correct and valid points, the topic is good for discussion and expressing ideas. It is great that many members are interacting here and are not discouraged from expressing points of view. As Dustin mentioned @Wazza_wantsbeeryou can refer you thoughts/ideas to the Community Suggestion thread. Good topic of discussion Wazza.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Update...

2nd Dry Hop just completed at 6 days in, day 7 starting. So based on previous experience, 2 more days then cold crash 2 days in terms of Droid defaults. My plan will be to cold crash for 4 full days before I keg at cold crash temps and then bottle at kegging temp.

As per plans, 25g of Citra and Mosaic plus 20g of Eclipse.

The smell, it's just wow, WOW. So much better than the first two brews at the Dry Hop stage in terms of the fruity hop forward characteristics.

The colour is also noticably lighter.

Cannot wait to see how this turns out.

 

[Dustin Frothman]

Drinking one now. It's not overly hazy but there is an opaqueness to it. 

I brewed this as per the recipe suggested to Robert by Liam which was 25g each of Citra and Galaxy. Of course you could always go for more hops, a different mix or hop more aggressively like Wazza is doing.

It's really nice. Surprisingly fruity for 5g/L of dry hops.

I'd brew this again but might wait to see how @Wazza_wantsbeer's version turns out first and perhaps copy that if it's closer to style.

 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

31 minutes ago, Dustin Frothman said:

Drinking one now. It's not overly hazy but there is an opaqueness to it. 

I brewed this as per the recipe suggested to Robert by Liam which was 25g each of Citra and Galaxy. Of course you could always go for more hops, a different mix or hop more aggressively like Wazza is doing.

It's really nice. Surprisingly fruity for 5g/L of dry hops.

I'd brew this again but might wait to see how @Wazza_wantsbeer's version turns out first and perhaps copy that if it's closer to style.

 

Damn that looks good @Dustin Frothman. Very, very drinkable. If that was exactly to the original recipe then what, 6-6.5% ABV depending on method of carbonation?

How many days post fermentation is that? I assume it is a keg draw rather than your taster bottle?

In terms of your comments, I have definitely gone a bit off reservation from the original recipe from this thread.

I added an extra element to go from a final 6-6.5% to 7-7.5% ABV and this is a DDH, double dry hopped, version.

A total of 115 grams of hops at 11.5g/l. First of the Double Hops was at high krausen and that was 45g.

Second hopping was when the Droid told me to, nearing the end of fermentation which makes this a true Double Dry Hopped (Hazy) IPA.

If smell is anything to go by, this will be my go to regular Brew as it makes my mouth water already.

Next time will go 50g per hopping rather than a bias towards the 2nd hopping based on further research (meaning YouTube videos and websites).

Heck, next time will probably go a DDH Hazy IIPA by adding 250g of Dextrose (X5) and will make sure I'm pre-prepared for some heavy spewing not far into Fermentation.

Even thinking to try another yeast variety such as US04.

Thoughts?

[Dustin Frothman]

15 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Damn that looks good @Dustin Frothman. Very, very drinkable. If that was exactly to the original recipe then what, 6-6.5% ABV depending on method of carbonation?

How many days post fermentation is that? I assume it is a keg draw rather than your taster bottle?

 

...

 

Next time will go 50g per hopping rather than a bias towards the 2nd hopping based on further research (meaning YouTube videos and websites).

Heck, next time will probably go a DDH Hazy IIPA by adding 250g of Dextrose (X5) and will make sure I'm pre-prepared for some heavy spewing not far into Fermentation.

Even thinking to try another yeast variety such as US04.

Thoughts?

This one is carbonated in a stainless steel keg using the Brewart primer blocks. So it would be 6.5% using the rough calculation method. It's about 6 weeks maturing, but this brew was stored in the Droid for a week or so whilst I waited on a delivery.

There's certainly nothing wrong with experimenting with any or all of the recipe to make it your own. I just wanted to see what Liam had come up with as Robert spoke highly of it. It's a very nice beer. I can't fault the taste, clarity, head retention or carbonation.

If you have a particular commercial beer that you'd like to clone just send Liam an email and he'll get back to you with a Brewart ingredients recipe to match it as close as possible. It's a great service.

Yes I think you'll probably get a bit of venting if you add more dextrose. I can see why Liam has chosen the Y2 yeast to get the fruity and ester flavour profile. I have a few packets of US-05 in the fridge. I haven't used that yeast yet so am not quite up to speed on its flavour characteristics, but again there's nothing to say you can't give it a try.

I reckon in general for IPA's 6.5% to 7.0% is my sweet spot. 7.5% is good but I can't have many - I just start to get too pissy and I do like to enjoy a few beers in a session. It's personal preference of course.

There's a whole thread here that discusses dry hopping. A chemist did a study and concluded that around 8.8g/L was the maximum amount to yield the optimum results and anything more just resulted in greater fluid losses or more vegetable matter in the solution. It's only one study and with your science background you'd appreciate that it would be far from conclusive. It is interesting however because hops are relatively expensive so if you can use less then surely that's a good thing. Especially if you are buying small quantities. I try to buy my hops in bulk to save where I can but my freezer is rather full.

Obviously there are commercial breweries out there using huge amounts of dry hopping with amazing results, but they're doing other things with their brews too. I've tried 150g in the Droid and it worked just fine but I couldn't tell you if the end result was any better or not. It's all just experimentation.

I dry hopped the Jolly Roger Pale Ale (Pirate Life Pale Ale clone) tonight and my notes from last time say I used 100g of hops in total. I dropped it to 80g tonight and will be interested to see if there's much change.

[Captain 3 Droids]

On 16/10/21 at 12:20 PM, Captain 3 Droids said:

I’m going to give this a go however I don’t have Ahtanum or Strata hops but Sabro (40g) and Idaho 7 (30g )are a good match (have these in stock)

Well thanks Liam. Absolute ripper and the 40g of Sabro and 30g of Idaho 7 have covered a wide range of the hop flavour spectrum. Delicious.

Do this again.

[Dustin Frothman]

7 minutes ago, Captain 3 Droids said:

Well thanks Liam. Absolute ripper and the 40g of Sabro and 30g of Idaho 7 have covered a wide range of the hop flavour spectrum. Delicious.

Do this again.

The very helpful lady at BeerBelly told me the other day that Amarillo can be substituted for Ahtanum. This is very handy to know.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

35 minutes ago, Captain 3 Droids said:

Well thanks Liam. Absolute ripper and the 40g of Sabro and 30g of Idaho 7 have covered a wide range of the hop flavour spectrum. Delicious.

Do this again.

C3D, that looks so good. Cloudy/Hazy but is it a bit darker than some others or is that just due to the ambient light when taking the picture?

Idaho 7 is definitely on the list to buy. Will be going with a long shopping list early this week.

[Captain 3 Droids]

1 minute ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

C3D, that looks so good. Cloudy/Hazy but is it a bit darker than some others or is that just due to the ambient light when taking the picture?

Idaho 7 is definitely on the list to buy. Will be going with a long shopping list early this week.

Well picked up, it is the ambient light, have the lights off and should put them back on for photos. Will do again.

Ps Idaho 7 is such a great, strong hop with a wide flavour spectrum.

[Captain 3 Droids]

52 minutes ago, Dustin Frothman said:

The very helpful lady at BeerBelly told me the other day that Amarillo can be substituted for Ahtanum. This is very handy to know.

BeerBelly (SA) are a good homebrew shop, reasonable prices, good service and cheap delivery. A husband and wife business as I understand where the husband does a lot of brewing fabrication.

Your right with the hop substitution however I’m going to do a “hop substitution beware” thread tomorrow to highlight that they can not always be an even playing field.

(ha the suspense)  

 

[J P]

Suspense is killing me…

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Almost there. Two days cold crash done, will extend until tomorrow for a 3 day crash and then keg 5l and force carbonate cold and then raise the Droid to kegging temps and bottle the remaining 5l.

Not going with the planned 4 day cold crash as time before the holidays is short and I really want to have the next beer ready for the days between Xmas and New Years when my wife and I will have a well deserved break.

BTW, next brew is the All Inn Brewing NEIPA FWK.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Kegging and bottling for the DDH Hazy IPA. Whew  🙃

Still making the same bloody rookie error when filling the keg... I over fill it and end up with little if any headspace. So then I need to purge some beer (into a glass for drinking of course, waste not, want not) to make some headspace for carbonating via CO2.

And tips and hints as to how to tell when your keg is getting close to full?

In terms of taste and look straight out of the keg, my absolute favourite so far. The colour is just right, very fruit forward hop flavour with low bitterness.

Got fewer bottles than originally calculated as I followed the @Dustin Frothman model and drew off 250 ml before kegging and cold crash temp. Then overfilled the keg so had to draw off another 250 ml so about 500 ml in total was draw off (but not wasted, yummm🤤)

All bottles have been primed with Dextrose bar the two with rubber bands around the neck as I only had 3 drops remaining.

All up, very very satisfied with this effort and I can't wait for 2 weeks to get into the sample bottle.

In terms of expectations or maybe hopes:

I hope this one keeps the same colouration as that is perfect for a Hazy IPA. Really hoping it doesn't get any darker.

I hope it stays nice and cloudy/hazy because again, as it looks straight out of the Droid is bloody well spot on.

[Captain 3 Droids]

5 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

And tips and hints as to how to tell when your keg is getting close to full?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/40KG-Digital-Kitchen-Scale-Electronic-Weighing-Scales-Shop-Market-Commercial-LCD-/174612068772?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0
I use these, put your keg on with all the attachments then set scale to zero. Good for checking Co2 bottle for usage, leakage.

 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

22 minutes ago, Captain 3 Droids said:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/40KG-Digital-Kitchen-Scale-Electronic-Weighing-Scales-Shop-Market-Commercial-LCD-/174612068772?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0
I use these, put your keg on with all the attachments then set scale to zero. Good for checking Co2 bottle for usage, leakage.

 

So you are weighing your keg, after you have tared it, as you fill it on the assumption that 1 litre of beer weighs approximately 1 kg?

[Captain 3 Droids]

2 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

So you are weighing your keg, after you have tared it, as you fill it on the assumption that 1 litre of beer weighs approximately 1 kg?

Correct, one litre of water weighs one kilogram, the difference with beer is negligible. 

[Dustin Frothman]

@Wazza_wantsbeerwhat @Captain 3 Droids said and/or get 10L kegs.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

2 minutes ago, Dustin Frothman said:

@Wazza_wantsbeerwhat @Captain 3 Droids said and/or get 10L kegs.

Got a 9.5l keg king 1/2 corny on the way... shhhhhh, don't tell the wife or she will be furious I've brought another one but hey, I need something to put the NEIPA in.

Annoyingly, it had to be a keg king rather than Kegland because I struggled to find a Kegland 1/2 corny available in Sydney anywhere and shipping right now from Kegland is very very slow.

BTW, @Dustin Frothman check that thread as I put my NEIPA down last night and have a few questions for you.

[Dustin Frothman]

1 minute ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Annoyingly, it had to be a keg king rather than Kegland because I struggled to find a Kegland 1/2 corny available in Sydney anywhere and shipping right now from Kegland is very very slow.

It's actually not that bad.

I ordered some gear from Kegland last Friday afternoon and had it by Wednesday this week.

I would just order from them and see.