Is sodium percarbonate and other cleaners necessary when you have no rinse sanitiser?

[Nick Seymour]

I'm thinking about making the process easier on me. As I have no rinse sanitiser, is it safe to just give the equipment a wipe down with a clean cloth and warm water and then spray everything the beer touches with no rinse sanitiser? 

I mean both the beerdroid and kegging equipment. 

This would in turn save water and time. Filling up those beerdroids to soak the sodium percarbonate takes up a little more than 10 litres of water and it takes time. To soak the kegging equipment, that takes a bucket full of water and takes time. 

I'm a home owner and water aren't cheap. As I own 3 beerdroids, all that water and time adds up. 

All this said, what if the beer in your beerdroid gets infected? Is the soaking with sodium percarbonate definitely essential in this case or can you still just wipe and spray?

[Nick Seymour]

Would boiling water damage the beerdroid? I don't mean entirely fill it up with boiling water. Just rinse and splash it through with a jug. 

[Mike A]

They absolutely are separate processes.  I know that after brewing a porter, I would need to clean properly, maybe if I was careful I could sanitise only on a light larger.

Regardless, good article here https://www.kegland.com.au/blogs/keglearn/blog-post-cleaning-and-sanitising-the-key-to-great-home-brew

[Nick Seymour]

1 hour ago, Mike A said:

They absolutely are separate processes.  I know that after brewing a porter, I would need to clean properly, maybe if I was careful I could sanitise only on a light larger.

Regardless, good article here https://www.kegland.com.au/blogs/keglearn/blog-post-cleaning-and-sanitising-the-key-to-great-home-brew

Interesting. Thanks for the link. I have ordered some ingredients for ales but I have been thinking the last couple of weeks that I will only brew lagers for now on. I prefer the taste of lagers over ales anyway.

I'm not sure but I think also lagers take less time in secondary to set for the right taste. 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

@Nick Seymour as a home owner (well an apartment) I can certainly appreciate and understand the costs of all our utilities, water, electricity, etc. As an all grain brewer, I use even more water than just using my Droid as you use water to mash your grains, then clean your brewery vessel(s) so plenty of water wasted. My Nano-X brewery is also electric so I'm using plenty of electricity when brewing and fermenting.

However, as a microbiologist by training, you definitely need to "clean" before "Sanatizing".

I always soak my Droid is Sodium Percarbonate or PBW (my personal preference) overnight to give a good cleaning before then using Stellar/StarSan to to sanitize before using the Droid.

There are ways to save water as there is nothing stopping you from reusing both your Sodium Percarbonate/PBW and Stellar/StarSan solutions if storing them properly when not in use.

I use two 20l sealed containers to store them and having a lid will keep any stuff out when storing.

Another thing I do, Is to use the fresh cleaning solution in my Droid, then empty it into a freshly finished and rinsed 19l corny keg or my other fermenter, depending on what's been most recently used or needs to be used next.

So generally, I go:
a. PBW from Droid - to empty and rinsed keg
b. PBW from Keg to another and rinsed keg or to other fermenter(s)
c. StellarSan from Droid to Keg used in a.
d. StellarSan from Keg in c. to another keg or fermenter

In fact, you can keep both PBW and StellarSan indefinitely in a stainless steel corny keg.

To best manage the process, I just use Post-It notes marked PBW, SS (StellarSan) and RFU (ready for use).

This means I'm always moving the solutions from one vessel to another, most often using a closed transfer which results in kegs that are both cleaned and sanatised and then emptied and ready for use without any O2 present as I use CO2 from a Sodastream bottle and mini-regulator to move the solutions.

So I'm all about reusing (properly) the solutions to minimise water usage and the PBW and StellarSan last longer too so therefore less costs all round.

Cheers

[Nick Seymour]

@Wazza_wantsbeer

I will take your word with using the sodium percarbonate. So I won't skip that step.

I didn't know that you can keep reusing the sodium percarbonate when it has been mixed with water. How many times is too many times in your opinion? 

I use tap water for cleaning but use spring water to mix with my brews. 

So you have given me the idea that once I have used a mix of sodium percarbonate with water, I can store it in the 10L spring water bottles which I get from the supermarket and use that again for the next time.  As long as it's sealed closed with a lid. 

Now you got me thinking!

Edited January 23 by Nick Seymour

[Nick Seymour]

@Wazza_wantsbeer

A problem I have found with using the sodium percarbonate in the beerdroids is that it leaves particles of the substance in the beerdroid once you have flushed it out. Rinsing it out with a jug of water won't make it go away which means I need to use a cloth to wipe away the particles of the substance. It literally sticks to the beerdroid.

Using that cloth would introduce bacteria I can iimagine. I assume to just spray it with no rinse sanitiser once I used the cloth which is used to wipe away the remaining particles of the sodium percarbonate. 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

13 minutes ago, Nick Seymour said:

@Wazza_wantsbeer

A problem I have found with using the sodium percarbonate in the beerdroids is that it leaves particles of the substance in the beerdroid once you have flushed it out. Rinsing it out with a jug of water won't make it go away which means I need to use a cloth to wipe away the particles of the substance. It literally sticks to the beerdroid.

Using that cloth would introduce bacteria I can iimagine. I assume to just spray it with no rinse sanitiser once I used the cloth which is used to wipe away the remaining particles of the sodium percarbonate. 

@Nick Seymour I found that as well, so what I do is mix it up as well as I possible can with a stainless steel spoon or other stirrer.

What I normally do with sodium percarbonate (SP) and/or PBW is to add water a couple litres at a time and stir between additions until you get the droid full (approximately 15 litres). Also, making sure it's hot water, around 50°C helps to dissolve the granules.

So, the method I use is to have about 2 litres in the Droid before adding the recommended amount of SP/PBW and by starting with hot water and stirring vigorously helps to ensure that all the granules of SP/PBW are dissolved and well mixed in.

If there are a few granules left over, I spray with a good strong (~70%) ethyl alcohol spray I purchase from the LHBS and that will instantly dissolve them and then I pour them out the spout under the Droid Tap.

Just make sure that whatever you use to stir isn't sharp as you don't want to scratch the interior of the Droid which will give bugs and other nasties a place to hide.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

35 minutes ago, Nick Seymour said:

@Wazza_wantsbeer

I will take your word with using the sodium percarbonate. So I won't skip that step.

I didn't know that you can keep reusing the sodium percarbonate when it has been mixed with water. How many times is too many times in your opinion? 

I use tap water for cleaning but use spring water to mix with my brews. 

So you have given me the idea that once I have used a mix of sodium percarbonate with water, I can store it in the 10L spring water bottles which I get from the supermarket and use that again for the next time.  As long as it's sealed closed with a lid. 

Now you got me thinking!

Certainly, using tap water means the life of the solution is a couple of weeks if properly kept. As I am brewing regularly, this means I can clean the Droid and other fermenters two or possibly three times as well as half a dozen SS Corny Kegs.

I know with StellarSan (StarSan), if you use distilled water it will last a very long time and I do that for the StellarSan in a spray bottle that I keep on hand.

Using Spring water is a great idea. I always use either spring water or RO (Reverse Osmosis) water if I can find it. Here in Sydney, I find that PureAU water which can be found at all the supermarkets, is as close as you can get to RO water.