Adding Dry Hops before EOF

[Eltham Brauhaus]

What are the implications of adding dry hops (in s/steel mesh cage) to a brew a couple of days before expected EOF?

Also, are there any issues with bottling a storage temp instead of kegging temp?

[Dustin Frothman]

I understand that if you time it correctly to be done at the tail end of primary fermentation then there's minimal issues. If you dry hop too early you can interfere with fermentation. I read something about yeast getting trapped in nitrogen bubbles in the hop pellets. I can't quote that or link you to where I read it sorry but it will be online somewhere.

I guess the other obvious implications are poor sanitisation of the hop bomb/cage and potentially introducing oxygen to the brew when you open the Droid lid if you are a bit slow adding the cage or a bit keen when putting the lid back on. @Captain 3 Droids  recommends a technique where he tries to minimise disruption to the layer of CO2 that sits in the headspace of the Droid. I'm sure he can elaborate.

I've also found that the hop pellets swell up inside the cage and there is some conjecture as to whether or not you are exposing the brew to all of the pellets and their oils when that occurs. I guess that's one reason why the direct method is popular, but then you'll have to cold crash and filter when bottling.

Re bottling at storage temp - I don't believe so. The yeast will be dormant until it warms up again so I guess it just delays the start of secondary fermentation. Someone please correct me if my understanding on this point is incorrect.

[Captain 3 Droids]

2 hours ago, Dustin Frothman said:

I understand that if you time it correctly to be done at the tail end of primary fermentation then there's minimal issues. If you dry hop too early you can interfere with fermentation. I read something about yeast getting trapped in nitrogen bubbles in the hop pellets. I can't quote that or link you to where I read it sorry but it will be online somewhere.

I guess the other obvious implications are poor sanitisation of the hop bomb/cage and potentially introducing oxygen to the brew when you open the Droid lid if you are a bit slow adding the cage or a bit keen when putting the lid back on. @Captain 3 Droids  recommends a technique where he tries to minimise disruption to the layer of CO2 that sits in the headspace of the Droid. I'm sure he can elaborate.

I've also found that the hop pellets swell up inside the cage and there is some conjecture as to whether or not you are exposing the brew to all of the pellets and their oils when that occurs. I guess that's one reason why the direct method is popular, but then you'll have to cold crash and filter when bottling.

Re bottling at storage temp - I don't believe so. The yeast will be dormant until it warms up again so I guess it just delays the start of secondary fermentation. Someone please correct me if my understanding on this point is incorrect.

Dry hopping early when fermentation activity is strong is not recommended however once the activity has slowed it can be beneficial. It is said that dry hopping 4 days after fermentation has started is acceptable however I think this too early for those long fermentation brews. I for well over a year have recorded EOF days for all that I’ve brewed so I get a good indication as to EOF times. I then predict when to add the hops for a 24/48 pre EOF. Mostly very close but sometimes a bit longer but it doesn’t really matter as fermentation is very slow/weak.

Now adding the hops, lift the lid gentle so you don’t “suck” up the semi protective (co2) covering, put the hops in (sterilised hop bag/hop bomb) and put the lid back on gentle to as not to force air down and push the semi protective covering out.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Just stumbled across this thread which is quite timely as I was just about to start a new thread asking questions around this. Based on some chat in the Facebook group, when brewing a Hazy or NEIPA, some are trying a new(ish) method to achieve a better Hazy or NEIPA. And given the discussions in other threads about brewing Hazys and NEIPAs (looking at @Dustin Frothman), I thought to add to those discussions here.

So for Hazy, East Coast styles and NEIPA's, dry hopping at "high krausen" has now become a trend to achieve a real "juicy" flavour in your beer.

Apparently, by dry hopping at the peak of fermentation (which is my understanding of what high krausen means) results in biotransformation of the hops. A more detailed explanation from https://brulosophy.com/2021/03/01/biotransformation-impact-of-dry-hopping-neipa-at-high-krausen-when-fermented-with-imperial-yeast-a24-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ :

"One unique method some brewers believe enhances the perception of juicy hop character in beer involves adding a hefty dry hop charge at high kräusen, which is said to encourage a chemical process known as biotransformation. Generally defined as the process by which a substance changes from one compound into another by way of chemical reactions, biotransformation purportedly occurs in beer when certain terpenoids in hops are in the presence of specific yeast strains during active fermentation, which transforms them into other terpenoids. The most discussed example of this involves the transformation of floral geraniol into citrusy citronellol, which is far more desired in NEIPA."

This is definitely something I would like to try but the challenge will be, given the droid is pretty much a closed system once when you press the start button and the viewing window is limited, how to best determine when the fermentation stage hits high krausen.

One of our fellow BeerDroid brewers on the Facebook community responded with this suggestion, "just a bit of a guess really-3/4 days into fermentation. I just look through the window and wait till it’s bubbling close to what I think is max 😂…I don’t want to open/close the lid more than I have too"

Anyone have any other ideas how to determine this with a little more accuracy and any other thoughts on this biotransformation?

[Captain 3 Droids]

21 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Just stumbled across this thread which is quite timely as I was just about to start a new thread asking questions around this. Based on some chat in the Facebook group, when brewing a Hazy or NEIPA, some are trying a new(ish) method to achieve a better Hazy or NEIPA. And given the discussions in other threads about brewing Hazys and NEIPAs (looking at @Dustin Frothman), I thought to add to those discussions here.

So for Hazy, East Coast styles and NEIPA's, dry hopping at "high krausen" has now become a trend to achieve a real "juicy" flavour in your beer.

Apparently, by dry hopping at the peak of fermentation (which is my understanding of what high krausen means) results in biotransformation of the hops. A more detailed explanation from https://brulosophy.com/2021/03/01/biotransformation-impact-of-dry-hopping-neipa-at-high-krausen-when-fermented-with-imperial-yeast-a24-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ :

"One unique method some brewers believe enhances the perception of juicy hop character in beer involves adding a hefty dry hop charge at high kräusen, which is said to encourage a chemical process known as biotransformation. Generally defined as the process by which a substance changes from one compound into another by way of chemical reactions, biotransformation purportedly occurs in beer when certain terpenoids in hops are in the presence of specific yeast strains during active fermentation, which transforms them into other terpenoids. The most discussed example of this involves the transformation of floral geraniol into citrusy citronellol, which is far more desired in NEIPA."

This is definitely something I would like to try but the challenge will be, given the droid is pretty much a closed system once when you press the start button and the viewing window is limited, how to best determine when the fermentation stage hits high krausen.

One of our fellow BeerDroid brewers on the Facebook community responded with this suggestion, "just a bit of a guess really-3/4 days into fermentation. I just look through the window and wait till it’s bubbling close to what I think is max 😂…I don’t want to open/close the lid more than I have too"

Anyone have any other ideas how to determine this with a little more accuracy and any other thoughts on this biotransformation?

Interesting, seems to be the new trend with NEIPA’S. I noted in the linked article that  “we performed an xBmt showing tasters were unable to distinguish a version dry hopped later in fermentation from one dry hopped at high kräusen. While those findings have aligned with others’ experimentation and personal anecdote, I wondered if the outcome might be different in a beer fermented with Imperial Yeast A24 Dry Hop, a blend that includes a Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus strain, and put it to the test.”
So is it perhaps yeast specific. 
 However nothing wrong with trying and making your own judgement. I don’t recommend this method for all brews/hops/yeast as reports indicate this can cause additional bitterness.

To ascertain high fermentation activity look through viewing window for regular bubbling activity but the temperature graph on the app would be your best guide - add when graph is starting to indicate frequent temp rises and cooling.

 

[Dustin Frothman]

30 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Anyone have any other ideas how to determine this with a little more accuracy and any other thoughts on this biotransformation?

If it's a particularly vigorous fermentation then you'll know it's getting close to hitting high krausen when the Droid is venting heavily.

Otherwise another trick could be to watch the temperature graph on the app and note when the warming and cooling trend is cycling rapidly. As fermentation occurs heat is produced which raises the temperature of the wort; the compressor kicks in and reduces the temperature back to the target. This is my assumption only, but I would deduce from that if the graph is showing the peaks regularly then you're probably getting pretty close.

[Dustin Frothman]

4 minutes ago, Captain 3 Droids said:

To ascertain high fermentation activity look through viewing window for regular bubbling activity but the temperature graph on the app would be your best guide - add when graph is starting to indicate frequent temp rises and cooling.

@Captain 3 Droids *snap!* 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

Excellent responses, thank you both @Captain 3 Droids and @Dustin Frothman

I think I will reserve this technique for when I attempt the NEIPA FWK from All Inn Brewing. As I will split the FWK in two 7.5 litre batches, I can try this with one batch and then standard hopping in the other and then compare the two.

Would also be interesting to see how this would work with @Dustin Frothman NEIPA recipe using the BrewArt ingredients to aid in achieving that juicy NEIPA flavours that we all desire.

Are you game @Dustin Frothman 😎

[Captain 3 Droids]

2 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

think I will reserve this technique for when I attempt the NEIPA FWK from All Inn Brewing. As I will split the FWK in two 7.5 litre batches, I can try this with one batch and then standard hopping in the other and then compare the two.

Great idea, great experiment.

[Dustin Frothman]

19 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Are you game @Dustin Frothman 😎

I'm certainly game!

As it's my first go at that recipe I'm just going to let the Droid do its thing and notify me of the normal dry hopping timing and see how it turns out. If I do this one again I'll try your suggestion.

I'm happy to report that the NEIPA brew is belching away heartily in the Droid this morning.

Just a little background: I'm a shift worker and usually travel a lot for work, so one of the many reasons I was attracted to the Droid was the ability to monitor and control the brew remotely. I also like small batches but that's another story. 

So some of the more advanced brewing techniques are great and if I've got time (which quite frankly I've had too much of these 20 months or so) then I'm willing to give anything a go. But I do like to run a recipe as designed as least once before I start messing with it as otherwise it gets tricky to assess what works and what doesn't.

Depending on how long you were looking into the Droid before buying one, you may not be aware that the Dry Hopping programming is only about 12 months old. So anyone brewing with one before that was basically predicting EOF and adding hops accordingly. The algorithm has been updated at least once during this time and the data kept at Brewart's end is far more comprehensive than we see in the app. If you do chat to Liam at tech support he will be able to give you some great insights into what is happening with your brews.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

@Dustin Frothman Completely understand how we all have different constraints and needs in terms of how and when we brew.

I was looking at the BeerDroid for about 6 months and read the forums to see that the Dry Hopping program was pretty new.

I also agree with your comment about using the original recipe to start with to get a baseline and then tweak and change as needed to better match our own individual tastes. However, I can't help myself and tweaked from my very first brew but that's my personality and probably because I was just so excited to start brewing.

So yes, the convenience, the WiFi (over bluetooth), the app, etc. were all what appealed to me with the BeerDroid. That and the fact that I'm in an apartment and it just is so much easier.

And finally, the flexibility you get with the BeerDroid is second to none. From the Prints, to the ingredients, all the way through to doing your own All Grain, the BeerDroid allows for it all.

Stoked I brought one and cannot wait until I get my first taste of my own brewed beer... which is unfortunately, still a few weeks away as I only kegged and bottled last Thursday. Jeez, time goes slowly when you are waiting on your beer. 😁

[Dustin Frothman]

19 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

So yes, the convenience, the WiFi (over bluetooth), the app, etc. were all what appealed to me with the BeerDroid. That and the fact that I'm in an apartment and it just is so much easier.

And finally, the flexibility you get with the BeerDroid is second to none. From the Prints, to the ingredients, all the way through to doing your own All Grain, the BeerDroid allows for it all.

That all sounds very familiar.

Couldn't agree more that the BeerDroid is a brilliant unit. I reckon you'll have two in no time. 😉

[Captain 3 Droids]

3 hours ago, Dustin Frothman said:

I reckon you'll have two in no time.

No question, once he’s tasted his first brew.

[J P]

Tick… tock… tick… tock… 🤣

[J P]

And just like that the name changes 

wazza wantsanotherdroid 🤣

[u9026a]

Hi guys, I need to travel suddenly, and before the droid has given me the 'HOPS' notification on the droid screen. So it's been 5 days  so I know I can probably get away with adding the hops now, but does anyone know if I can tell the droid via wifi that I've added the hops, because usually I press the tick on the droid itself and then it gets on with the brewing process. If the tick doesn't get pressed, what happens? I need to leave in about 12 hours so a bit unsure. Hoping it shows the hops sign tomorrow morning.

[Captain 3 Droids]

7 hours ago, u9026a said:

Hi guys, I need to travel suddenly, and before the droid has given me the 'HOPS' notification on the droid screen. So it's been 5 days  so I know I can probably get away with adding the hops now, but does anyone know if I can tell the droid via wifi that I've added the hops, because usually I press the tick on the droid itself and then it gets on with the brewing process. If the tick doesn't get pressed, what happens? I need to leave in about 12 hours so a bit unsure. Hoping it shows the hops sign tomorrow morning.

My understanding is if you don’t press the tick for adding the hops the Droid will ignore the hops added process and will continue on as normal, ie EOF, keg then store mode.

I’d add your hops now.

Cheers

[u9026a]

That sounds promising, I'll try that, thanks Captain.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

On 10/11/2021 at 4:11 PM, Captain 3 Droids said:

No question, once he’s tasted his first brew.

Hahaha, good timing because on that point, today marks day 14 since I bottled and kegged by first brew, the Narci-Citrus IPA and secondary fermentation should have completed.

The question is, can I, or perhaps even better, should I, have a taste now or wait a little longer before even having a taste?

I should point out that I have one of the PET bottles filled with "dregs" from the Droid, approximately 500 ml in one of the 750 ml PET bottles and it's really the only bottle that I can see any floaties or sediment. I considered this one the "spare"  😁

So, to taste now or not to taste now, that is the question I ask...

😎

[Captain 3 Droids]

4 minutes ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

So, to taste now or not to taste now, that is the question I ask...

Have a taste now. Have a look at this post, may help 

https://community.brewart.com/topic/659-how-long-to-keep-in-bottle-before-drinking/?do=findComment&comment=8791

 

[Dustin Frothman]

2 hours ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

So, to taste now or not to taste now, that is the question I ask...

😎

Based on your posts here to date, and knowing precisely what you are attempting to achieve with this system, I'd strongly suggest you wait at least another two weeks.

Brewing beer is all about sanitation, temperature control and patience.

I think if you wait you'll be pleasantly surprised and if you don't you'll probably be rather disappointed. Your dregs bottle is likely to taste fairly ordinary too.

Just go out and buy your favourite craft beer after work today and once you've had a couple you'll quickly forget about the beers maturing in the cupboard.

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

3 hours ago, Captain 3 Droids said:

Have a taste now. Have a look at this post, may help 

https://community.brewart.com/topic/659-how-long-to-keep-in-bottle-before-drinking/?do=findComment&comment=8791

 

Thank you C3D, that all makes sense. Try from week 2 and keep trying each week until you find the "sweet spot" or the Goldilocks for age for that specific brew.

Interestingly, more hoppy beers such as commercial Hazys and NEIPAs are meant to be drunk as soon as practical. When I buy a Hazy or NEIPA, I always try to look at the brew date and anything older than 2 or 3 months, particularly for a NEIPA, I will avoid. And that's with Commercial breweries using force carbonation and canning (for the most part, there are the odd ones that still bottle) immediately, usually with an additive or two to help with maintaining life and consistency.

So I wonder if the same principle will apply for our Droid Hazys and NEIPAs?

[Dustin Frothman]

1 hour ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

So I wonder if the same principle will apply for our Droid Hazys and NEIPAs?

I highly doubt it. I think if you search through every post on this forum and the various FB groups you'll find there really isn't a single recipe from the standard range that is ready to drink at any less than 4 weeks maturation. 

If you're a member of the Kegland FB group search for a recent thread from a guy that had never brewed before and used a FWK and temperature controlled pressure fermenting setup. He had gone all out and bought a kegerator too. He was pretty disappointed at how his beer tasted once fermented and force carbonated. Everyone told him to let his beer sit for 4 weeks and try again. The results (for him) were very surprising.

I'm very happy to be wrong about this but I highly doubt your experience would differ.

The are so many additional processes happening at a commercial brewery to get their beer from wort through fermentation to a can/bottle in the least amount of time. We're simply not following those with this system.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is a Coopers product. And if you're a fan of their range you'll note that instead of a Best Before date, they list a a Best After date on their bottles and cans. 

If you're using different brands of yeast you may get different results but I'm happy to assume that the Coopers yeasts (and dried ingredients) are working on this maturing philosophy.

So why do I care? I guess in my relatively short time using this system I've watched a bunch of users come and go and rubbish the system based on the results they experienced because they were a little impatient. Anyone that has taken their time and let their beers age a little have been more than pleasantly surprised and what you can achieve. As someone who home brewed many years ago, gave it away for a long time and then came back to this, I can say I have been blown away with what you can do with so little effort.

I'm just as much of a craft beer wanker as you. I go to craft breweries multiple times a week and am always comparing what I'm churning out at home with this system to their offerings. Interestingly, I was at Pirate Life in Port Adelaide with my wife yesterday and we had a couple of their Dilmah Tea IPAs. I've brewed the Yeastie Boys Gunamatta Grey IPA clone on this system using standard Brewart ingredients, some good quality loose leaf Earl Grey tea and hop pellets I supplied. My wife made the comment that the one I brewed at home was better. Go figure.

 

[Wazza_wantsbeer]

2 hours ago, Dustin Frothman said:

I highly doubt it. I think if you search through every post on this forum and the various FB groups you'll find there really isn't a single recipe from the standard range that is ready to drink at any less than 4 weeks maturation. 

If you're a member of the Kegland FB group search for a recent thread from a guy that had never brewed before and used a FWK and temperature controlled pressure fermenting setup. He had gone all out and bought a kegerator too. He was pretty disappointed at how his beer tasted once fermented and force carbonated. Everyone told him to let his beer sit for 4 weeks and try again. The results (for him) were very surprising.

I'm very happy to be wrong about this but I highly doubt your experience would differ.

The are so many additional processes happening at a commercial brewery to get their beer from wort through fermentation to a can/bottle in the least amount of time. We're simply not following those with this system.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is a Coopers product. And if you're a fan of their range you'll note that instead of a Best Before date, they list a a Best After date on their bottles and cans. 

If you're using different brands of yeast you may get different results but I'm happy to assume that the Coopers yeasts (and dried ingredients) are working on this maturing philosophy.

So why do I care? I guess in my relatively short time using this system I've watched a bunch of users come and go and rubbish the system based on the results they experienced because they were a little impatient. Anyone that has taken their time and let their beers age a little have been more than pleasantly surprised and what you can achieve. As someone who home brewed many years ago, gave it away for a long time and then came back to this, I can say I have been blown away with what you can do with so little effort.

I'm just as much of a craft beer wanker as you. I go to craft breweries multiple times a week and am always comparing what I'm churning out at home with this system to their offerings. Interestingly, I was at Pirate Life in Port Adelaide with my wife yesterday and we had a couple of their Dilmah Tea IPAs. I've brewed the Yeastie Boys Gunamatta Grey IPA clone on this system using standard Brewart ingredients, some good quality loose leaf Earl Grey tea and hop pellets I supplied. My wife made the comment that the one I brewed at home was better. Go figure.

 

Great replay and thank you @Dustin Frothman for taking the time to write such a detailed and well reasoned and thought out response.

I certainly get what you are saying about the Coopers beers (big fan of Coopers Red, Sparkling Ale which used to be my go to before IPAs really became a thing), the Coopers ingredients and in particular the Coopers yeasts used. Yes, the "best after" date was always something that set Coopers apart from the dross that was available back in the day pre the craft beers we have today.

I certainly understand how secondary fermentation and then maturation will only improve the taste and quality of the beer using the Prints and ingredients.

I guess I was more referring to when we go "off reservation" so to speak and use the customized recipe lists and more importantly, when the BrewArt ingredients are used minimally or aren't used at all. For example, it's why I am keenly following your partial mash NEIPA using the Lellemand American East Coast Ale Yeast. And then there is the brews when I and others (yes, I'm following that thread in FB on the All Inn NEIPA as well as another thread on another NEIPA) use a FWK plus different yeasts.

I would expect (or perhaps the term "suspect" is better) that these beers would likely need to be drunk fresh rather waiting 4-6 weeks to mature but I'm definitely open to be shown otherwise and will follow the advice of others who have been there and done that before me.

Anyway, it's all exciting stuff and for complete transparency, the "dregs" bottle is in the fridge now waiting to be opened later today. I don't have high expectations based on your post and others but I just can't help myself and I really want to try it. I also think that by trying it now, 2 weeks post fermentation and finding it a little or a lot underwhelming, it will help me be more patient with the remaining 10 litres sitting in bottles and keg.

At least that's the plan  😉

[Dustin Frothman]

1 hour ago, Wazza_wantsbeer said:

Great replay and thank you @Dustin Frothman for taking the time to write such a detailed and well reasoned and thought out response.

...

And then there is the brews when I and others (yes, I'm following that thread in FB on the All Inn NEIPA as well as another thread on another NEIPA) use a FWK plus different yeasts.

No worries, I just want you to have a good experience with this and think I can save you from some of the classic mistakes that we all make. Experienced brewers like @Captain 3 Droids has done this for many of us including me.

You're right though, sometimes you've just got to suck it and see for yourself. Check out my latest post in the Dark Lager thread for a great example of one of my failed experiments.

Ask that guy on FB - I think it's "Marcel" in Brisbane that has had some success with the NEIPA FWK. I'm fairly certain he still matured the finished product for a while but as usual I'm always happy to be wrong.